A Discussion Between two “Christians” on Abortion.

Below you will see a facebook discussion between myself and L.D. the first part is her position and the second part that will be clearly marked is my rebuttal.  Italics and emphasis in L.D.’s narrative were added by me… Placing “Christians” in the tile is NOT an insult or attack on any persons Christianity it is a question…… IF we are “Christians” shouldn’t we settle our disagreements with his word?

“First, there is man’s law and God’s law. Only believers are held to God’s law. Man’s law is for all people and must allow for their beliefs as well. It is not proper to hold non-believers or different believers to God’s law. God’s law is not codified. It is for each individual to interpret the meaning of God’s law for him or herself. Man’s law is codified and we have a system of interpreting and changing the meaning of that law.

A natural person is under current law defined as an individual that exists separate from it’s maternal host. That means outside the womb and still alive. That’s the definition. It’s the specific factor on which everyone agrees life begins. Nobody, actually very few, say that a baby alive and outside the womb is not a person.The question then becomes at what point is it illegal to perform an abortion. We know a single cell is not a person. I had a skin tag removed from my leg. It was living human tissue, but no one was going to claim it was a person.

As I’m Christian and am informed by those beliefs, I believe a person becomes a person when it acquires a soul. I believe that comes with the first breath. The youngest babies that have lived are 20 weeks gestation or above. That means that the only reason they have not acquired a breath is because they are not outside the womb. Were they outside the womb, they would have taken a breath and received a soul. That’s the best information we have about where to draw the line. I believe that is the reason Texas has chosen that limitation in it’s law. Babies younger and younger are saved. I think we’re pretty close to the line where younger babies simply cannot live if delivered earlier.

This is the point where I my personal beliefs and my beliefs about law and government diverge slightly. Legally, I believe that abortions before 20 weeks should be legal. These fetuses cannot survive outside the womb and therefore are considered part of a woman’s body and not a separate being. That is because I believe in individual rights and a person making medical decisions for herself. Morally, I would not have an abortion. I would try to discourage a friend from having an abortion. I believe in supporting groups like CareNet that provide women more options. I don’t believe the government (actually taxpayers) should be funding either Planned Parenthood or groups like CareNet.

My beliefs about government are not the same as how I conduct my personal life. I further believe that God instructed us to love one another and preventing them from making their own choices is not acting in love.

There can be no civil debate between those who believe as you believe and those who believe as I believe.

We have a different set of assumptions.

If you don’t believe abortion is allowed under God’s law, don’t have one, but don’t take that right from someone else without compelling reason.”

Preacher Cruz’ rebuttal follows this break ********************************************************


Okay, I disagree that Gods law is not codified. Certainly SOME things are left open to debate but that debate, for believers, should occur in context and with an understanding of what the bible DOES say about the issue or related issues. What about the Ten Commandments seems open to debate or interpretation to you? I would also point out that the bible teaches us that we are NOT supposed to “interpret” the Bible we are to read it and align our will with it as the revealed will of God.

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

IF, PROPHECY, the most cryptic and hard to understand parts of Scripture aren’t supposed to be interpreted why would the rest of scripture?

I would also point out that your position on Western Jurisprudence is inconsistent. ALL of Western Jurisprudence is actually predicated and informed by Judeo-Christian values including the 10 commandments. WHY is it acceptable to expect NON believers to be held to OUR standards when it comes to theft, rape, murder of a human outside the womb, lying, cheating, fraud etc etc? WHY is it only, on the issue of termination of a human life in the womb that you say we can’t expect non theists to be held to our beliefs?

It’s circumspect to say the least and at worst a form of intellectual dishonesty. IF the non theists believe they’re simply evolved animals then theft, rape, lying, cheating and yes even MURDER can be termed “good” in that they may help the criminal to better succeed as an animal. Moral absolutes and even right and wrong cease to exist under THOSE guidelines yet we aren’t arguing to abolish all law, even though it IS based on Judeo Christian values that most do not share.

I would further warn any person against thinking they can “interpret” Gods’ word any way they see fit. This is where cults spring from, the desire to recast God and his word in a form that pleases US.

Ordinarily I wouldn’t use a quote by a progressive activist but hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day… Anne Lamott once said, “You can safely assume you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” I like that but would take it a step further… You can safely assume you’re not practicing true Christianity when the Bible says whatever YOU want it to. There are DEFINITELY places in the Bible that I think, “why does it have to be that way”? things I don’t necessarily like or “agree” with. Ultimately, I submit MY will and understanding to he who made me. I am the flawed and fallible creation and Jesus is the INFALLIBLE creator. He is the word and the word is him (John 1). Who am I, or ANY human being to argue with or against the living WORD of God the Logos?

Yes there is a mechanism by which laws are amended or changed but often this mechanism is hijacked by judges and even the Supreme Court legislating from their respective benches. Taking decisions out of the hands of the states, voters AND their elected legislators isn’t Constitutional and yet we have it happening repeatedly on certain issues.

I’m not sure WHERE you get your chosen “definition” of a natural person but here are some I can find…

: a real human being, as distinguished from a corporation which is often treated at law as a fictitious person.

: A human being, naturally born, versus a legally generated juridical person.

: a human being as distinguished from a person (as a corporation) created by operation of law

: In jurisprudence, a natural person is a real human being, as opposed to a legal person, which may be a private (i.e., business entity) or public (i.e., government) organization.

: Natural personhood” refers to persons as the term is understood in common parlance. Sir William Blackstone characterized “natural persons” as those “[s]uch as the God of nature formed us.”

I quite literally can’t lay my finger upon a SINGLE definition that says a natural person “exists separate from its maternal host” So; it is simply NOT true to state that this “IS” the definition. At least unless you can produce some definitions to show this.

MANY states before and after Roe V Wade have considered and are considering personhood amendments. MANY States consider causing fetal death via any means SAVE abortion as either manslaughter or murder. If these are NOT natural persons how can the law act on their behalf or punish someone for causing their termination? Especially while some people make a good living doing this as an occupation? The Bible also makes clear there is a price due for causing the death of the unborn in the womb…

Exodus 21:22-23

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life

So just causing the baby to be born early was a crime and the husband would determine the punishment but if the baby OR the mother dies life for life.

The skin tag argument is sad and dishonest. I even heard someone talking about their fingers the same way. BIG DIFFERENCE….

I’m not sure if you’re aware of this but your fingers and skin tags will NEVER become anything other than a fleshy piece of skin or finger.



They do NOT possess their own separate code of DNA…. Non analogous points of comparison for $200 ALEX!

I’m beginning to think that for those who wish to justify the killing of the unborn the question has NOTHING to do with when the fetus becomes a living human being and EVERYTHING to do with just how “flexible” they can get in their exegetically gymnastic headlong rush to eisegesis!

Truth doesn’t matter here; it is what you can SAY you believe, especially if you can get others to believe it.

IF you’re a Christian and you’re informed by those beliefs then PLEASE explain HOW you can sit here and say a person doesn’t get a soul until they breathe?

The Bible doesn’t say anything remotely like that. Here are some scriptures about life in the womb though…

Psalm 139:13-16

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

GOD spoke to the Prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1:4-5

Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

IF a baby isn’t a “natural person” and/or doesn’t receive a soul until birth what are we to make of the account in Luke 1 when the “fetus” that would be John the Baptist reacted to Jesus just by hearing Mary’s voice?

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy

The Bible ALWAYS considered the “fetus” a child or babe or baby in the womb. There is NO way…..AT ALL to justify saying a fetus is not a human being from a scriptural standpoint.

IF as you say your views are informed by your Christian beliefs then you MUST acknowledge this.

This isn’t about which of us is right, this is about what IS right. I don’t care about being right, I just care about being right with God and preventing the loss of more innocent children to abortion.

To dwell a bit on the idea of breathing though; a fetus may not “breathe” in utero, though the same process is completed for them in a sense by the mother. IF a baby is born prematurely they often DO breathe on their own or can be stimulated to breathe for themselves. What IF a woman believing as YOU do, that a baby is soulless until it’s first breath, decides to give Birth in a swimming pool and then kill her child before it TAKES that first breath?  OBVIOUSLY, this shows a major flaw in your thinking….THAT would be premeditated infanticide… Though you say this child has no soul and so is therefore NOT a person.

Botched abortions DO sometimes breathe. SO by your COMPLETELY made up, unsupported by scripture, views as a Christian, this unwanted and botched abortion NOW has a soul! President Obama supported letting living breathing human beings by your OWN admission and words since they were now “breathing and had a soul” sit on a shelf in a closet until they died.

Viability doesn’t nullify the FACT that this is a preborn human, the FACT that GOD says it is a human being OR the FACT that this precious life already has its own DNA and likely heart beat and brain activity! By your reasoning if a person is no longer able to survive on their own without assistance and can’t reason or speak for its own rights then they lose their personhood? I mean after all they aren’t able to survive on their own and don’t have the means to request or defend their “natural rights”…. So, is it ok to kill them for the convenience of family or taxpayers? The Devaluing of life is rapidly taking us to these types of decisions.

IF NOTHING IS WRONG WITH ABORTION then why would you not have one? Why would you try to encourage someone not to etc? You have absorbed an UN Christian Liberal worldview and are now trying to make it fit with your Christianity. You’re not even able to be coherent now because of this, doctrinally speaking. You’ve allowed the discussion to be co-opted by Orwellian double speak. Medical decisions, reproductive health choices, fetus & termination….. Let’s call things what they really are for the most part, sinful, selfish baby killings.

You just can’t have it both ways. I understand you’re saying, you don’t feel ALL people should be held to the same standards as believers, even IF, as I’ve already demonstrated that thinking is flawed, inconsistent and not entirely honest…..

HOWEVER, ultimately, as a Christian you KNOW that some things are morally right and some wrong. Right and wrong are not subjective they are OBJECTIVE referents to he who has given us the law. Right and wrong don’t depend on US they depend on GOD and I think you know this… Gods’ law IS applicable to all in an overarching, spiritual, very real and final way. Those who deny Jesus and his law will all be judged….

OH boy, preventing people from making their own choices? MURDER should never BE a choice. ALL women have LOTS of choices. Whether to have sex or not, what contraception if any to use, where they will do it, with whom, how they wish to do it etc. THESE are legitimate choices.

I just don’t see how allowing people who have thus far not shown the best ability to MAKE healthy decisions; to NOW have power over whether another human being lives or dies (or if you prefer has the CHANCE or CHOICE to live or die) is supposed to be an example of showing Christian love to them…

Does Jesus hate us because he opposes US lying, cheating, stealing, killing etc etc? Of course not? Is he blocking our free will choices? No, he is simply showing us that some things SHOULDN’T BE choices and asking that we accept the CONSEQUENCES of our choices.

I suppose allowing women to be objectified and used by men, in some cases forced to have abortions, not have their rapists reported (statutory and otherwise), herded like cattle through sometimes filthy, uncaring, abattoir like environments, ran by merciless, heartless, profiteering quacks, potentially ending up psychologically and physically scarred, sterilized and even killed is somehow loving? I oppose abortion because it is WRONG. Whether or not you consider it murder, I just don’t see how anyone can make an argument that an abortion is EVER morally right or good.

Certain things are not supposed to be choices. We don’t allow people to shoot up in public nor are you likely to try to defend this, we don’t allow people to sell body parts or their whole body to people etc etc. THIS all removes their rights to make choices about their own bodies!

I am saddened to say that I agree with you on one point. There CAN be no civil debate with someone who twists the Bible to try to make it say what they wish and those of us who follow Christ in truth and in deed. HIS will not ours should be the goal of all “Christians”.

How can two “Christians” who claim to believe in and serve the same God and use the same Bible view this, BASIC issue so differently?

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

WE are called to be different from this world if we truly believe in, love and follow Christ.

This has NOTHING to do with what I believe or what you believe it is about what GOD says. Abortion IS the unlawful and unconstitutional taking of a preborn human life. THAT alone is to ME, as a servant of the most high God, a more than compelling reason to prevent some poor woman from killing her unborn child.

Ultimately, I can NOT do this but NO “Christian” should wish to enable it or pretend it is OK either.

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A Constitutional Discussion of Abortion…


You’re being ambagious.  Your circuitous reasoning doesn’t quite hold up and here’s where/why…

You wrote “”murder” is a legal judgment, as opposed to an act. For good or ill, the Constitution only protects “persons,” and at common law, the status of personhood was only granted at birth (and as someone correctly pointed out in citing Lord Coke, English law drew a clear distinction in penalties between causing the death of a fetus and a live person).”

No doubt/argument, murder IS a legal judgment but laws are not set in stone they change and more than this GODS laws are above and distinct from mans.  Just because something has been ruled “legal or Constitutional” by the Supreme Court that doesn’t mean it actually IS. Furthermore when referring to legality or your assertion that the Constitution only protects persons after birth please consider the following….

“First, and most importantly, the outcome of Roe is fundamentally harmful and unjust. Why? The facts of biology show that the human embryo or fetus (the being whose life is ended in abortion) is a distinct and living human organism at the earliest stages of development. This was established long before 1973, though subsequent scientific and technological advances have greatly improved our knowledge of life before birth. As Dr. Horatio R. Storer explained in a book published in 1866, “Physicians have now arrived at the unanimous opinion that the foetus in utero is alive from the very moment of conception.”

Justice requires that the law protect the equal dignity and basic rights of every member of the human family—irrespective of age, size, stage of development, condition of dependency, and the desires and decisions of others. This principle of human equality, affirmed in the Declaration of Independence and the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is the moral crux of western civilization. But the Roe Court ruled, to the contrary, that a particular class of innocent human beings (the unborn) must be excluded from the protection of the law and allowed to be dismembered and killed at the discretion of others. “The right created by the Supreme Court in Roe,” observes University of St. Thomas law professor Michael Stokes Paulsen, “is a constitutional right of some human beings to kill other human beings.

The right alleged in Roe is blatantly contradicted by the history of abortion law in the United States. Ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment roughly coincided with enactment of a wave of state laws prohibiting abortion from conception with the primary aim (according to clear and abundant historical evidence) of protecting unborn children. Most of these statutes were already on the books by the time the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted in 1868, and many of them remained unchanged until Roe struck them down more than a century later. “To reach its result,” Justice William Rehnquist thus concluded in his dissenting opinion, “the Court necessarily has had to find within the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment a right that was apparently completely unknown to the drafters of the Amendment,”

Now, when you said “Not by anyone who has studied constitutional law and does not bring their disqualifying religious bias into the equation.” You’re guilty of the propositional fallacy of affirming a disjunct…

I think you realize that simply having a religious belief doesn’t, in and of itself, negate ones thinking on this or any subject.  More than this, as already demonstrated, the US Supreme Court contravened the decisions and powers of the states that were changing to reflect the peoples view that the fetus was a distinct human

being.  In addition, your statement has the further demerit of being demonstrably UNTRUE.  Many NON religious, Liberal Constitutional students AND scholars disagree with roe on constitutional grounds.  Here is just one such quote..

“As a constitutional argument,” notes University of Pennsylvania law professor Kermit Roosevelt (who favors legalized abortion), “Roe is barely coherent. The Court pulled its fundamental right to choose more or less from the constitutional ether……. Also, “Even pro-choice legal experts don’t try to defend Roe on its merits. “What is frightening about Roe is that this super-protected right is not inferable from the language of the Constitution, the framers’ thinking respecting the specific problem in issue, any general value derivable from the provisions they included, or the nation’s governmental structure,” wrote the eminent constitutional scholar and Yale law professor John Hart Ely. “It is bad because it is bad constitutional law, or rather because it is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be”

Quotes borrowed from http://www.lifenews.com/2014/01/21/roe-v-wade-unjust-unconstitutional-and-undemocratic/

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Love Speaks the Truth…

This discussion was moved here because it comes up so often.  If we as Christians stand against ANYTHING, whether its Abortion, Homosexuality or what have you we always have some people saying we’re being poor Christians.  They seem to think that standing for morality and truth is UN-Christian but loving people straight into Hell by telling them that no matter WHAT they do they can go to Heaven is correct… Below you will see the last post by Scot and then my answer to him..

Scott:  “Our feelings about a matter don’t change the truth.” You should heed your own words.

Some Gays crash a couple of conventions. They protest in the same manner that teaparty activists have repeatedly at Town Hall meetings. Did that change attendees minds? No. A vote is made on the subject. Politicking is performed to promote Gay’s position. Is that illegal? No. Did gay guys go to everyone’s homes and make those people vote for the change in classification? No. Was there violence? No.

Remember this: Losers can’t rewrite history, but only express their opinion of it, which is what you are doing. Whatever. It’s irrelevant now.

To cut this short: You lost then. You lose now. The horse is out of the barn, and events are occurring that are forever out of your control. Thank God.

You do know that there are many people in this country that are doing without that you and your group might help. Be a Christian.

Preacher Cruz @ Truth Ministries:

Scot, first off you wrote “The APA did not declassify homosexuality because they were afraid of civil unrest. They did so simply as research proved it is a variation of sexual orientation”… I demonstrated pretty clearly this was not so.  You’ve offered NOTHING but further faith based declarative statements.

I gave you evidence that NON qualified, politically motivated people were given direct access and input into the discussion and voting process.  Certainly no one was “forced” to vote any certain way but that is what’s known as a distinction without a difference.  When the gay “plant” is keeping track of who said what and who voted how, many people are going to capitulate for fear of being branded a “homophobic bigot”.  Many also were afraid their livelihoods and professional reputations and/or academic standing might be threatened etc.

When homosexuality was removed from the DSM I was ONE year old.  I had no dog in the fight so I didn’t lose anything.  Today, I feel the people who are losers are all the gay people who used to have options for getting help and controlling their desires and actions.  Homosexuality is not healthy and certainly not the rampantly promiscuous kind that seems to be SO popular among a large percentage of it’s adherents…

For what its worth, before I became a Christian I didn’t understand or approve of homosexual attraction but I did have many friends who were gay and bi.  I still have acquaintances and family members who are gay.  I respect all people and people can do what they like but don’t expect all people to say they agree with it or that it’s healthy, natural or normal. 

One of my former friends who self identified as Bi and I, had a similar view on religion/philosophy and morality at the time… Mainly, that there was such a thing as right and wrong and yet we both had real issues (for obviously different reasons at times) in doing what we knew to be right and NOT doing what we knew to be wrong…. I found out about 5 years ago He killed himself on my birthday.  I firmly believe the day was a message to me from God (as I don’t think my old friend even knew my Birthday) and it re-directed my commitment to the Lord and my submission to him.

Homosexuals are many times more likely to suffer from drug and alcohol abuse, depression and other mental illnesses, AIDS and more.  Pretending this isn’t so doesn’t do ANYONE any good.

Lastly, allow me to touch on a subject I’ve dealt with many times… I don’t go around telling (as just a random sampling) Muslims, Satanists, Prostitutes, Catholics, Race Car Drivers or Gays they’re poor representatives of their respective groups since I don’t know all that much about what makes a good race car driver, Satanist or what have you.  I always find it interesting that NON Christians love to tell Christians they’re doing it wrong..

You’ve no earthly idea what I personally OR this ministry does for others.  Engaging people in discussion on homosexuality represents less than 5% of my ministry efforts….. However, Christianity isn’t simply doing for others and helping them, it is also giving them the good news; that Jesus came to the Earth and died for them.  That if they will accept him and do as Jesus commanded to, “go and sin no more” and try to live lives pleasing to him and in service to others they can be forgiven of their sins and spend eternity with him in Heaven…

Love for others doesn’t mean letting them do whatever they like and telling them it’s right and ok.  The Bible defines sexual immorality, not you or I; and ANY sex outside of wedlock is sin.  We can’t willingly live in sin and enter into the kingdom of heaven any more than a murderer or rapist can do what they do and stay out of jail.  There are consequences to our actions…

Just because society may be leaning one direction or another, this doesn’t absolve Bible believing Christians form standing for what is true.  Things like abortion are murder and sex outside of marriage is sin. 

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BEAUTIFUL Musical Moment Is More Powerful Because..

The classical piece was re-interpreted to be a song of Worship and praise to the Lord Jesus.  That is the Amazing thing, to see people openly and publicly singing about and to Jesus!

“Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee” is a poem written by Henry van Dyke in 1907 with the intention of musically setting it to the famous “Ode to Joy” melody of the final movement of Ludwig van Beethoven‘s final symphony, Symphony No. 9.[1]

Van Dyke wrote this poem in 1907 while staying at the home of Williams College president Harry Augustus Garfield. He was serving as a guest preacher at Williams at the time. He told his host that the local Berkshire Mountains had been his inspiration.[2] The lyrics were first published in 1911 in Van Dyke’s Book of Poems, Third Edition.[2]

Van Dyke wrote of this hymn:

These verses are simple expressions of common Christian feelings and desires in this present time—hymns of today that may be sung together by people who know the thought of the age, and are not afraid that any truth of science will destroy religion, or any revolution on earth overthrow the kingdom of heaven. Therefore this is a hymn of trust and joy and hope.

Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee (or You), God of glory, Lord of love;
Hearts unfold like flowers before Thee, opening to (or Hail Thee as) the sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness; drive the dark of doubt away;
Giver of immortal gladness, fill us with the light of day!
All Thy works with joy surround Thee, earth and heaven reflect Thy rays,
Stars and angels sing around Thee, center of unbroken praise.
Field and forest, vale and mountain, flowery meadow, flashing sea,
Singing [sometimes "Chanting"] bird and flowing fountain call us to rejoice in Thee.
Thou art giving and forgiving, ever blessing, ever blessed,
Wellspring of the joy of living, ocean depth of happy rest!
Thou our Father, Christ our Brother, all who live in love are Thine;
Teach us how to love each other, lift us to the joy divine.
Mortals, join the happy (or mighty) chorus, which the morning stars began;
Father love is reigning o’er us [or Love divine is reigning o'er us in some modern day hymnals], brother love binds man to man. ( binding all within its span win the United Methodist Hymnal)
Ever singing, march we onward, victors in the midst of strife,
Joyful music leads us Sunward in the triumph song of life .[3]

Note: The final stanza is omitted in some recent hymnals.

The foregoing are altered lyrics as they appear in many, if not most, hymnals. Below are the original lyrics as Van Dyke wrote them[citation needed]:

Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee,
God of glory, God of love;
Hearts unfold like flowers before Thee,
Opening to sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness;
Drive the dark of doubt away;
Giver of immortal gladness,
Fill us with the light of day!
All Thy works with joy surround Thee,
Earth and heaven reflect Thy rays,
Stars and angels sing around Thee,
Center of unbroken praise!.:
Field and forest, vale and mountain,
Floweringmeadow, flashing sea,
Chanting bird and flowing fountain,
Call us to rejoice in Thee.
Thou art giving and forgiving,
Ever blessing, ever blest,
Wellspring of the joy of living ocean depth of happy rest,
Thou our Father, Christ our Brother, –
All who live in love are Thine:
Teach us how to love each other,
Lift us to the joy divine..
Mortals join the mighty chorus,
Which the morning stars began;
Father-love is reigning o’er us,
Brother-love binds man to man.
Ever singing march we onward,
Victors in the midst of strife;
Joyful music lifts us sunward
in the triumph song of life!

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Will You Stand AGAINST Constitutional Abuses Or Will You Stand FOR Them?


Everyone COMPLAINS about the government infringing on their rights…. The thing is TOO many of us seem unwilling to do ANYTHING about it.  I’ve often said that people abuse for JUST as long as you allow it.  When you jump up and give ONE person a fat lip or black eye; then they mostly leave you alone.  Crude analogy for a very REAL situation.

We stand by and say nothing while our rights are being slowly stripped from us day by day.  It all started when America accepted the UN-Constitutional notion that we had to FORCE people to be fair and not discriminate during the Civil Rights era.  I am a person of SO called “mixed race” with African/ Puerto Rican on one side and Cherokee/Irish on the other.  I grew up in Detroit and lived there until almost fifteen.  I have lived in NYC and Alston, Mass too.  I give all of this as a preface to what I am about to say…

When we decided to stand by while the government FORCED racists and rednecks to accept integration and to be MADE to serve people against their consciences, we all lost something.  WHY on Earth would any Black person of that era want to put money in the hands of a person who was calling then the N word and refusing to serve them just a month ago?  The PROPER and LEGAL way to have addressed this was for the PEOPLE to refuse to do business with these racists; by protest and to influence through social and economic pressures to change.  When a persons hard headedness affects their bottom line they start to think about what needs to change.

We stand here and LET Muslims and other blacks use “cooperative economics” which basically means they will only do business with other blacks and or Muslims if they have a choice!  WHAT?  We now let blacks do what we forbid whites from doing?  We also allow the formation of Black, Asian etc student unions but no White student unions!  Here in Indianapolis we have Black Expo every year!  Can you imagine the outcry if someone organized a WHITE Expo?

We forced people to act against their own consciences and stole away their private property rights and right to freedom of association and NOW the incursions into our rights progresses.  Get your 4th amendment rights to protection against unreasonable search and seizure violated by the NSA daily, the TSA should you decide to use commercial travel while the Muslims walk right past the nude body scanners and pat downs.  As a Christian it is against MY religious beliefs to have anyone see my naked body or touch me aside from my wife and doctor and the same goes for my wife.  WHY are we subjected to these types of violations?  Oh, that’s right because of 9/11 and the terrorists.  Well, I am an Army war Vet and my wife is Caucasian and it’s not people like US that were responsible for 9/11.  Israel doesn’t use scanners and DOES profile and they haven’t had a hijacking since 1968.

We need to start actually voting FREEDOM first and any person who opposes ANY of our Constitutional rights, or who makes laws or otherwise shows them to support the restriction of our rights should NEVER be voted for.  Write letters call your representatives and when there is a town hall meeting on issues of import to you GO and speak up.  We have to make our voices heard before we lose ALL of our rights.  If government can force you buy insurance what CAN’T they do to you?

Sorry for the rant but I am getting so tired of people admitting the problems they see but basically being too complacent to actually DO anything about it.  Not saying that is you but I do my part to get people informed and motivated to act.  Its also AMAZING to me how people CORRECTLY point out the failings of George W Bush like the Patriot Act but stand silently or even defend Obama renewing and expanding the Patriot Act by building huge monitoring centers and spying on EVERY American with their own tax money, killing American Citizens abroad with drone strikes WITHOUT due process of law, forcing Americans to buy a product, signing on to the UN Small Arms Treaty etc etc.

The WORST offenses against the people and the Constitution in this great nation always come from the Leftists Democrats!  Japanese Internment Camps during WWII, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Fast & furious etc etc.  People need to wake up and look around at what is happening.

Find out just what the people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.
— Frederick Douglass, civil rights activist, Aug. 4, 1857  Frederick Douglas like most ALL Blacks during the cvil rights era was  REPUBLICAN.

Interesting how the Dems have people believing the Party that freed the slaves and orchestrated and implemented Civil Rights laws are racists while the Party of the KKK and George McGovern are now the party of Black people.  Democrats used to use disgusting political signs that said the Republican party was the party of the Negro and the Democrats were the party of the white man.

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Don’t Feed The Trolls: A Response to My “Friend” RonMar


Please note: RonMars words will be marked by **** at start and finish and will be in quotes and my replies will be marked TM: at start and finish and will be in italics.

I have taken a few days to think about and pray about how to proceed. If you haven’t read “Exchanging Pleasantries With Another Christian” I ask that you PLEASE read it first as it gives some background on a discussion with direct quotes from over a year ago.. http://www.kjv-truth-ministries.org/?p=650 If you’ve already read it or already have personal experience with the man who calls himself RonMar and would like to jump right in, please do.

I hadn’t had any contact with this person in over a year. Last time I was rudely introduced to him by his attacking me for taking another person to task for using racist comments. His very first post to me was “Preacher what Deity died and left you as the judge of His created ones?” (This is particularly interesting since Ron LOVES to judge everything other people post and even places himself as the arbiter of who is Christian and who is saved.) I allowed him to have the last word, so to speak, last year but I compiled a greatest hits list of his comments and made the page I referenced above. It has been up for all that time and many people have found it an interesting read and I even have a friend and Christian Brother in Australia now partially thanks to it. (Hi, Chris!)

This new experience in psychological abuse started again with HIM posting to ME. I was exchanging posts with petroskhan a fellow disqus poster and little did I know that by agreeing with him I was opening myself up to literary, psychological and I believe, spiritual attack by RonMar. AGAIN, he posted to ME first with

****“ What? You are allowing yourself to be duped by a charlatan, a force against Christians and Christianity.”****

So, his first post again was an attack but this time on petroskhan. This goes on routinely btw with petroskhan and pretty much ANYONE with whom RonMar disagrees. Here are just a few quotes lifted from the discussion of RonMar attacking petroskhan….

****“I gave you God’s WORDS. You can heed it or not, ayor. You must remember, you do not tell me what to do. I tell you. I am the one with authority by virtue of being called, education, experience, training and ordination; you are not. You are an agent of Satan attacking Christianity and Christians like an Islamic jihadist.” Or “You don’t know the teachings of the Bible. You can’t even read the Bible properly and correctly. You, poor thing, are so delusional, such a liar or both. You are no Christian or anyone to judge who is or is not, those who are in fact Christians or anyone else. You are, in fact, an agent of Satan attacking Christianity and Christians as evidenced by your assaults on certain denominations and their adherents. In that respect you behave like an Islamic jihadist.” Or ”… “You don’t know God, let alone His teachings. You are the coward and liar trying to project your traits and behaviors onto me and others – a sure sign of your insanity.” Or “…go away forever and concentrate on attaining your salvation which you presently do not have.”, and “Get serious or seek help from a psychiatrist”**** Lather rinse and repeat and I think you get the idea. He has, in a quote to me, also referred to ptroskhan as “pet and petroSKHAM” which seems to be a portmanteau fabricated to again abuse him and his Christinity as a sham and scam.

I will post a few quotes exchanged between RonMar to me later but first I would like to make a point. I TRY very hard day by day to be what God wants me to be. Like all of us, some days I fail and some days are better than others. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. I believe this but I also know that the old man never truly dies completely and sometimes, just maybe, that also is what God wants. We are all a conglomeration of our experiences, memories, upbringing, schooling, training etc. God helps to refine and focuses us, to emphasize the things he can use, our better qualities and talents and helps us control or tamp down the negativity, bad habits etc.

If you ask the people who REALLY know me, like my wife and kids they would tell you that I truly AM a new person in Christ. The man that I used to be just doesn’t seem to be in charge of the building any longer. I thank God for that but I also know that a large part of who I am is because I grew up in Detroit and also lived for awhile on the streets of NYC as a runaway. After that I also spent four years in the Army. All of these experiences taught me things and also helped to shape who I became as an adult. A LOT of that was mitigated, shaped and smoothened by a patient God. Through his grace and mercy and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit MANY things changed. God sent me a wonderful woman who is a love, support, comfort and sounding board for me. She helps me to focus and to see things I otherwise might not. She, like most GOOD women, helps me to be more of what I should and less of the man I was.

That being said, I learned to stand up for myself as a teen and there were literally times I might have been killed had I not the skill to defend myself and a spirit that was unafraid of confrontation. (NO pride intended as God gave me those traits) Today, I don’t mind so much when people attack ME; but because the Lord has given me passion for righteousness, truth, and justice; I can no longer stand idly by while others are attacked, lies are told or people are being unfair to each other.  RonMar has abused and threatened many of us including repeated threats of lawsuits against ANYONE who dares actually stand against him as he rails against everyone else as some sort of Online King and Judge of all men.

Where and when possible I DO believe (and the Bible says) that we have a responsibility to suffer wrong, to live in peace with all and to even turn the other cheek when attacked. It also says that there IS a time to fight, that self defense is a right and that we should ALWAYS be willing to help and defend others. I don’t think God expects us to be door mats, and he certainly doesn’t expect us to stand by when someone routinely and habitually with malice of forethought attacks people, calls them names, defames them, their character, their witness, ministry for the Lord and even their salvation!

Bullies MUST be confronted; their attacks must not be allowed to go unanswered and their blatant false witness and lies rebuffed.

Here are a few exchanges RonMars words will be marked by **** at start and finish and in quotes and my replies will be marked TM: at start and finish and will be in italics.

****“If you ever learn to read, read my post”…” I remember you. I have not boasted but rather simply posted my qualifications and shared experiences to let you and others know I speak with some authority.
Those of you joining in criticism of certain denominations, Christians and Christianity are doing much worse than giving Christianity a black eye. You are in fact behaving like Islamic jihadists and at the lest aiding, abetting and supporting them in your and their attacks on Christians and Christianity.
None of you have any justification whatsoever for criticizing any Christian, Christians or Christianity in public.”****

TM: It seems to everyone else that practically ALL you do is boast of yourself. Your qualifications, your superiority, your righteousness etc etc. I’m sorry but you ONLY speak with authority where your words line up with SCRIPTURE after that you assume an authority you do not have as once you have spoken it is still up to the INDIVIDUAL to listen or not and the Holy Spirit that does the work.

You LOVE to question the authority of everyone else but assert that YOU speak from authority when you routinely refuse to answer the same critiques and questions you level at others.

I fear there is really nothing we can say to each other. Gods’ word makes QUITE clear what is and is not Christian. Calling oneself Christian doesn’t make it so and groups can cloak themselves in “Christ” all they like but if their teaching doesn’t align with Gods’ word; they are FALSE prophets..

YOU say we don’t have any justification for judging any Christian/s then you proceed to do it to us many times over…. YOU are right with God, Ordained, anointed, and educated all to be our shepherd and if we refuse to cooperate, you’re fully justified in mocking us, calling us names and generally conducting yourself like a schoolyard bully.

Do you argue with Scripture? We DO, have not only the authority but the RESPONSIBILITY to test our institutions and leaders..

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Matthew 7:15-16 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

ANY person or group that teaches that Jesus is not God, that we need anything OTHER than the bible to know him and his will for our lives or that we will become Gods or ANYTHING, whatever contrary to scripture is NOT Christian no matter how many times they say it. I don’t know why ANY Bible believing Christian would pretend otherwise… :TM

****You are not qualified to teach me, PreacherBoy. You have no qualifications for the ministry you inherited if I recall your story correctly. You are the false prophet and a money-grubber abusing and misusing God’s Holy Word. Tell me, boy, what was Paul’s view on taking money for his service as Apostle to the Gentiles which eventually cost him his life?”****

TM:  Then He Said :TM

****“What you do is boast and try to project your faults, flaws, traits and behaviors onto others – a sure sign of your insanity. You are right, there is nothing we can say to each other, and it is improper and inappropriate for you to be saying things about me to others. You are only trying to defame my character, harm me and my ministry, and I do have legal recourse to protect me from people like you and your hostile behaviors.”****

TM: There is NOTHING we can say to each other because YOU think you’re perfect and that NO one can tell you or teach you ANYTHING, least of all Scripture apparently, since you IGNORE every piece of scripture placed out to defend the fact that there IS a Biblical foundation for judging Christian organizations and leaders. We don’t get to pick and choose which scripture we will live by and listen to.

I am sure you justify CONSTANTLY threatening to sue professing believers by imagining that we are all NOT Christians. Funny that, since you tell everyone else they can’t judge Christians. Physician HEAL thyself. Hold yourself to the standard you expect of others and you would not post HALF of what you do.

PLEASE sue me as this proves you are NO Christian at all.  I will be GLAD to make you and your so called representatives look foolish in court should you wish to pursue that un-Scriptural approach. Just as I’ve done here and am about to do again. HOW can I hurt your ministry? I don’t know who you are or where you are.  My words are directed to people ALREADY discussing you and not strangers or your “parishioners”. You also IGNORE the fact that I’ve got proof of DOZENS of times that you’ve insulted me, my ministry and my family name and on and on…

So who is defaming whom and WHO is insane?


STOP pretending to be the big important man and either read your Bible and OBEY it or COME on down to central Indiana and sue me and waste your time! I am not hiding behind internet anonymity. You can easily find me.

Since you insist upon on acting like a child…………

I will treat you like a child and rebuke you PUBLICLY.

IF you respond to me even ONE more time I will post a shout out containing this post with your name on it addressed to ANYONE who knows you. I fear neither man nor what man can do to me
and certainly not a proven braggart who is all boast and no bite of ANY kind.

I will no longer wish you Gods blessings or good day as you deserve nothing but the shunning of all Christians until you repent of your childish, abusive and deplorable conducts. Many of us have tried a friendly approach and it has become worse than talking to the fool who denies God.  You CLAIM to believe in and serve the same God we do and then you refuse to debate using his word or hold yourself accountable TO it.

So, good riddance I guess. Unlike YOU, I DO have more pressing matters of ministry for the Lord to tend to. :TM

****”This is tongue-wagging as mentioned in the Bible, and an example of the tongue-wagging at it worst. I have not reviewed what you posted on your website and am so busy in my ministries, presently in the Middle East for a while since September and to not really have the time or interest right now to check out what kind of one-sided story you presented without affording me the courtesy of commenting on it before you published it.

That’s the kind of person you are”****

TM: More of the insults slander and defamation you CRY about in others.

You are MORE than aware of the page as I told you LAST year that I would not respond to you any further unless you posted THERE since I had taken the time and trouble to post much of our debate on one page to make things easier for those who wished to read it. With entire quotes from you unedited…

READ my last response to you sent before this. The gloves are off and I will NOT talk to you anymore. IF you want to talk to me you can SUE me if that is what you want to do.

Respond to me ONE more time and I WILL actively seek to share your words and conduct with anyone and everyone you know. No more games it is time to be held accountable.

You CLAIM to be so busy serving the Lord but you have PLENTY of time to make an online annoyance an ASS of yourself to ANYONE who doesn’t agree with every word YOU say, mostly unsupported by and devoid of scripture.

THAT is the kind of person YOU are. DO NOT address me again. :TM

****“How very unchristian of you to threaten me so and to call me an ass. Try to carry out your threat. That will give me an abundance of evidence for filing and winning a civil suit against you. I hope your “ministry” preacher boy is worth something. I will own it.”****

I never threaten. That is your bag. I tell people what I am going to do and I see it through! Apparently you can’t read because I never said anything about you being ass. You threaten people repeatedly but when people take exception and stand up to your bullying you CRY like you’re the wronged party. STOP talking and do something or leave me alone. I will NOT respond to anything you say but I WILL share our conversations with EVERYONE. Good bye.

****“Preacher, I am giving you fair warning – Cease and Desist. You are a liar, charlatan and a fake just as we are warned of in Bible prophecy – ” you have PLENTY of time to make an … ASS of yourself.”
I am on mission right now overseas and have no more time for your Satanic attacks, but I assure you I will deal with you in due time.”**** 

TM: I typed a response and actually submitted but chose to remove it and post a simple Buh Bye as I had every intention of moving the discussion here and then washing my hands of it to which I received.. :TM

****”No, hello. You have returned to harass and attack me while I am on an overseas mission trip for the Lord, literally at risk of my life in a most dangerous place. Apparently you are too stupid to know or care that you are interfering with the work of the Lord. You are going to pay dearly for it PreacherBoy, especially when you stand before The Judge on your judgment day.” And then “What happened to your post Preacher? No matter. I have it for the legal file against you.”***

TM: Before I start to finish up here I want to address a couple of points.  I hope you will all forgive me that with all the exchanges on the discussion thread at http://youngcons.com/40-mind-blowing-quotes-from-barack-obama-about-islam-and-christianity/#comment-1080531692 I missed that I said he had plenty of time to ACT like an ass. That is not the same thing as actually calling someone an ass but I’m not going to get into parsing terms like a lawyer. The point is, a fair reading of the conduct of RonMAr leaves almost EVERYONE he comes in contact with muttering “What a hateful ass”. I’m sorry but the truth is the truth and I’m not in the business of hiding the Truth, watching my words or being politically correct. I calls ‘em likes I sees ‘em. 

If anyone needs any more proof of the type of cold, hurtful, hateful and condescending person RonMar TRULY is; how about this repeated quote against Bodey043 “Who appointed you judge, sick little boy who lost a son and does not know how to deal with it other than to attack other Christians, particularly women?”

My Lord, where is the understanding, the love, the pain for the grieving loss of a son?  NO, this “Christian” uses the knowledge of one of Bodeys most painful memories as a bludgeon upon him!  Who is acting like an agent of Satan?  You have to be cruel if not evil to treat people this way.

ONE more example of how he has treated petroskhan “…you do not behave at all like a Christian but rather like an Islamic jihadist attacking Christians and Christianity. I also know you are arrogant, egotistical, self-centered and ignorant, and that you love arguing endlessly…are dishonest, a liar and a game player.”*** Pot meet kettle please!

Here is what little is known about RonMar from his own blurb or about on Disqus….

“Retired US military officer with 21 years active duty, 38 years total in uniform. University assistant professor, teacher in various disciplines including aviation, boating, history, leadership and management. Graduate degree in counseling psychology, trained, certified and practiced counselor. Professional writer and editor. Founded and served as CEO of several, diverse, small businesses, all successful. Saved at age 14, called to ministry in 2000, seminary graduate, ordained, working minister and missionary particularly to Muslims and others in the Middle East and here, soldier in the Army of God resisting attacks on Christians and Christianity, minister to less fortunate people. Son of a WWII veteran, father of two sons – an attorney, and a retired AF fighter pilot. Two grandchildren.”

Oh, my goodness!  He IS accomplished but that’s nothing just wait until you see him walk on water whilst turning it into wine AND bottling it! I’m surprised he didn’t say he also had the Congressional Medal of Honor, a Nobel Peace Prize and had been Times man of the year TWICE, he was named Sexiest Man Alive in 1946 & 47 and Sexiest Woman also in 1947!  He is the currently reigning three time world (MMA) Mixed Martial Arts Champion, currently serves as Vice President of the United Sates, currently holds the Guiness books world record for most words typed whilst simultaneously patting yourself on the back with both hands, and has never failed at anything except finding anyone else half as perfect, righteous and talented as himself.  Also, he displayed great promise as a musician while playing the Kazoo at seven years old and undoubtedly could have been a musical prodigy had he not been so damn busy running his first successful business, a paper route.   Notice something odd here though? Since he never uses his real name or says WHERE he ministers, who ordained him, where he went to college or seminary, where he supposedly teaches what businesses he supposedly founded or was CEO of we have NO way of knowing what if ANYTHING he posts about himself is true. Funny how THAT works isn’t it.

I also notice that for such an accomplished man of God I have yet to see a SINGLE person come out supporting him or liking his comments when he goes on his hateful, derisive and scornful tirades against others. Many times what he is objecting to is people refusing to stand for false prophets and false Gospels. If you left a church because of cult like adherence to some “prophet” whose work is held up to and with the Bible or otherwise call out the same types of people and groups YOU are the problem.

I also can’t help but wonder if one son really IS a lawyer, might that explain his penchant for constantly threatening litigation in an UN-Christian and UN-scriptural manner.

This man says things about me that are provably and demonstrably false that he has ZERO proof of and then wants to sue ME when I say things there are AMPLE proofs of.

In Indiana under Title Code 34 for Libel and Slander you must be able to PROVE the Libel, meaning you must be able to SHOW the person knew the statement was untrue and/or show that said statements caused ACTUAL damages. Oddly, this protects ME and not RonMar. He KNOWS full well, that I am NOT a paid minister, that I did NOT inherit my ministry.  My family pays all the operating costs of Truth Ministries ourselves sacrificially; it was a calling from God that I resisted for years and finally submitted to.  I serve the Lord, my community and others through this ministry at COST to myself and have not received money for any services or ministry whatsoever.

The Bible is QUITE clear that Believers do not threaten to or take each other before secular authorities.

1   Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 

2   Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 

3   Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 

4   If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 

5   I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 

6   But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 

7   Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded? 

8   Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren. 

9   Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Since RonMar refuses to acknowledge the statements or judgments of ANY of the people he has discourse with, no matter how many times we ask and use scripture and since furthermore he actively SHIELDS his personal identity and ministry from us we have no recourse save GOD. 1 Samuel 24:12-13 The Lord judge between me and thee, and the Lord avenge me of thee: but mine hand shall not be upon thee. As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: but mine hand shall not be upon thee.

However…IF RonMar ever tries to make good his oft repeated refrain to sue me, or any other Christian to my knowledge, I will file a countersuit or assist others in the same. There is a Biblical prescription for this as a last resort as well in Matthew 18:15-17 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16   But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17   And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Since he will NOT hear or recognize ANY of the multitudes of Christians who have tried to tell him of his trespasses, or our faults with him, he should realize we have no choice but to consider him as a heathen and Publican if he acts against us. He should further realize that in the normal process of discovery for trial and through court filings we will have access to his ACTUAL name and will then be able to also find out how much of his bragging is truthful and be able to write letters with evidence of his abuses and threats to take believers to court and direct same to his spiritual authorities, ordaining body etc.

RON  please pay attention!  No man is an island and man does not live in a vacuum. Actions have consequences and for every action there is a RE-action.

Do NOT think for one moment that you can LIE, harass, insult, bear false witness and then dare to imagine, you can threaten a person, families or ministries finances to soothe your thin skinned and bruised ego.

In the real world, if you attack people, somebody eventually stops you. You’ve hid behind your internet anonymity and played the big man long enough.  By the grace of God, by his will and permission and with his help; I will stop you.

I will do this not for myself but for ALL the people you’ve abused who are too good natured to do anything or who’ve been cowed by your threats of lawsuits or for whatever reason have allowed themselves and others to be mocked, vilified and repeatedly abused.

Lastly, folks let us remember the internet admonition. Don’t feed the trolls. Don’t waste your time with folks who show NO Christian love, NO desire to learn, no humility, honesty or decency towards others. We judge a tree by its’ fruits and we are expected to treat ALL people with love and respect, even our enemies. I will be blacklisting RonMar. I will not read ANYTHING he posts ever again until and unless he reaches out and apologizes. Until he repents to God for the wrongs he has heaped upon me and so MANY others. In accordance with scripture I will pray for him and I will forgive him.

He quite possibly is suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder which might explain his inability to consider that he is ever wrong or that anyone else knows ANYTHING he doesn’t or could ever be correct. He also could have complications due to some other Borderline Personality Disorder, which causes him to seek out, desire and compulsively aggravate and continue conflict and arguments. Or he could just be a disagreeable person who is desperately unhappy. He accuses other people of all the same things that he routinely does and adamantly refuses to see it. Pot meet kettle.

In closing I encourage ALL of you who have argued with or been attacked and abused by RonMar to stop giving him what he wants. BLOCK him. Don’t read his posts. Ignore him except to pray for him.

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PLEASE Bear With Us…

Having style sheet CSS issues with every theme I use. Click links and then scroll down for content.

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My Thoughts on the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman case…

I want to start this by pointing out that in all my 41 years I’ve never been called a “White Hispanic”. As a person of mixed race with a Puerto Rican father I’ve been called LOTS of things but never a “White Hispanic”. That is a TOTALLY new term coined by the Liberal Media in a mad dash to make this case all and ONLY about race….

Trayvon Martin was a young man who posted thug pictures of himself on Facebook with his middle finger extended and tested positive for Marijuana during autopsy and the Media puts a picture of a TWELVE year old smiling Trayvon on nearly ALL their stories. He ALSO was on his THIRD Suspension from school and had been in trouble at school for drug use, petty theft and vandalism! This wasn’t a nice or good young man but the media wanted us to believe that he was.  Likewise the pictures we saw of Zimmerman were of an unsmiling stern looking man in a mug shot!

These people (the media) love NOTHING more than grabbing a stick and poking the hornets nest to provoke an even bigger story they can then pretend to just be reporting on!

They manipulate perception and push an agenda because its good copy! They KNOW that a white man killing a black teenager for “racial” reasons is a HUGE story that will get ratings…

A story about a shady, pot smoking, thug kid who attacked a Latino man for following him isn’t a BIG enough story, so they LIE and manipulate the story to make it look like something it definitely is NOT.

Ultimately what we have to realize is there is NO such thing as Black or White! We are ONE race and so long as we let people divide us by color we are actually letting them CONTROL us. We need to be smarter than that!

I REFUSE to allow people to tell me who I am or how I should feel just because I happen to have brown skin or because of my national or racial heritage! I am an AMERICAN and that term applies to ANYONE who is a loyal citizen of these United States…

It has become TRENDY to allow ourselves to be labeled and to self identify as our color, nationality or sexual orientation.

I happen to be a Male, Heterosexual of mixed nationality and heritage but NONE of these descriptors defines who I actually am!

The media pretends that all Hispanics, Blacks, Gays, Women etc should think and vote ONE way or else they are traitors to their respective groups! What NONSENSE!

So, just because someone happens to be a racial minority, gay or female the Left and the media ASSumes we can only think ONE way? Does anyone else think this may speak to how Liberals REALLY view minorities, gays and women? You are so dumb and predictable that you can ONLY think one way and when you DARE to prove them wrong; that is when the long knives come out and they call you a traitor to your kind, racial and gay slurs and generally try to brand and vilify you for DARING to have your own thoughts and opinions.

Ultimately this story is about a Neighborhood watch member who went just a little bit TOO far by following a young man against the advice of 911. It is also about that young man deciding to physically attack a man for following him and bashing his head into the ground.

Race had NOTHING to do with this case but that didn’t stop the media and the USUAL race bating suspects from pretending the ONLY thing that mattered was Trayvons’ race!

That’s right people, George Zimmerman could ONLY have pulled his gun and shot Trayvon because he was BLACK it had NOTHING to do with Trayvon straddling him and beating his head against the ground….

WAKE up and think for yourself! Look at the stories they are feeding you and try to imagine yourself in BOTH sets of shoes. While Trayvon may have been afraid of the “creep as* cracka” that was following him he wasn’t too afraid to attack him without finding out WHY the man was following him… Maybe Trayvon attacked him because what He saw was a “creepy as* cracka” daring to follow him……

You know I just might be wrong here. This actually MIGHT have been a racially motivated attack….. BY Trayvon against Zimmerman!

I can guaranFRICKINtee that had Trayvon killed Zimmerman we would never have heard of this story and there sure wouldn’t be anyone calling for Federal Civil Rights or Hate Crime charges, I wonder why that is.

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Purge the Movie initial thoughts..

We saw it yesterday for my birthday.  I may actually do a review for it eventually but without giving away spoilers I will tell you I found the movie to be entertaining and provocative without being TOO over the top in its violence (at least by standards today with all the torture type movies). The lead villain is an AMAZING young Australian actor. The wife and I were SO impressed we looked him up on IMDB after the movie!

The casting was VERY good, the acting and score were top notch and the directing was impressive with truly stellar performances being delivered by multiple parties with the trapped family, the villain and one neighbor lady in particular giving standout performances.

This movie is set in 2022 and the basic premise is that at some time not too long ago the “NEW Founding Fathers” came up with the idea of artificially deflating unemployment, reducing the population of non providers, criminals and the poor, while also reducing crime to an almost NON existent percentage. Crime is taken very seriously and punished except for ONE day of the year from 7PM to 7AM and during these twelve hours ALL crime is allowed so long as certain classes of weapons aren’t used (think nuclear, biological & chemical or WMD types) and the entire thing is monitored while some of it is broadcast to the public by the media.

The majority of Americans’ are totally cool with this and they justify it by saying how much better things are now with less poor people, less violence all year etc etc. The REAL crux of this story comes down to a basic morality play as to whether you have a responsibility to aid someone you don’t know and what cost you’d be willing to pay to do what you think is right.

The thing that didn’t work so well for me is that there is NO mention of God and yet historically we know that those who stand against injustice and are willing to do so at great risk are almost universally Theists with a focus on Jewish and Christian faith. If you doubt this look at the Underground Railroad and those who helped free Jews, Polish and Gypsy peoples during the Third Reich.

Also unlike MOST Hollywood movies today there was relatively little swearing with only ONE use of GD and no sex either. Not a bad movie at all and it DOES make you think because as you will see if you give it a chance, JEALOUSY is a poison that seeps into a society and even infects the relatively well off.
I left the theater talking about how eerily plausible I found the movie. The entitlement mentality of people keeps speeding even to the point that people of means often have hatred in their hearts for anyone who has more than they. It is a shame that so many people are judging this movie who really don’t know what it’s about.

Unlike the “Fast & the Furious” movies this movie will make you think and that is no bad thing.

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The Man of Steel – A Review


The Man of Steel

I am going to try to keep this brief and I will start with a spoiler free review with my thoughts and then I will also add some deeper reflection with spoilers but I will warn you in case you want to stop.

Man of Steel was Directed by Zack Snyder (300 & Watchmen) and one of the producers was Christopher Nolan. Having never watched Zack Snyders’ films before I at first thought that Nolan was the director as it reflects his epic scope and masterful moralizing by placing reality based, Conservative messages in an action or superhero movie.

This movie is a back story or foundation for an OBVIOUS franchise of many films. That being said it manages to lay a firm foundation for later films without actually sacrificing character development or interaction. It has a VERY good story and in fact out of ALL the Superman movies it did the best job, in my opinion, of explaining the origins story with the fall of Krypton and the sacrifice of baby Kal-Els’ birth parents being shown to good dramatic effect.

There is even some focus on the childhood Clark Kent and how he must learn to control his powers and his temper to TRY to fit into the everyday world of humans. I don’t want to give anything away here but the childhood back story is WELL done and needed as it comes up again in the movie and helps explain who he is and WHY he is who he is. His Earthly father is played by Kevin Costner to great effect and it is obvious that Clark learned MUCH about hard work, trying to do the right things and sacrifice from him.

This movie is HUGE in scale with amazing special effects that never take over the movie or feel out of place or unrealistic. Whether we are seeing the fall of Krypton, the attempted coup d’état (military takeover) of Zod or the final battle between Supes and Zod it all feels very plausible and looks real enough to immerse you in the fantasy world. For a contrast, people seemed to LOVE movies like Avatar and Avengers which to MY way of thinking BOTH rely far too heavily on special effects that ultimately just don’t convince.

The biggest complaints that I’ve heard about this film are that the character development story & dialogue weren’t thorough enough. One major example is that people think the interactions between Lois Lane and Superman weren’t deep enough and that General Zod was (depending on who you ask) either too dry or too over the top… To me analyzing what we ARE given about the characters situations and motivations, MUCH of which is revealed THROUGH character dialogue I couldn’t disagree more.

Spoilers ahead people! If you haven’t seen the movie and think that knowing plot points may ruin your enjoyment please stop now…

To me this movie strikes an almost perfect balance between laying the foundation for a franchise and telling a complete and enjoyable story NOW. The Kryptonian home world was a CGI dream come true for the creative team and will likely be for Superman fans. However, the strife of a collapsing world with a mini civil war and the Scientist Jor-El trying to get permission to send his son (the FIRST naturally conceived and born Kryptonian in generations) away with the Codex (a genetic and historical map of life and culture on Krypton) and ultimately seeing General Zod abolish the council of elders by killing one of them and seizing control. Jor-El played by Russel Crowe was apparently far sighted enough to know that he might have to fight to send his son away and made plans accordingly. Jor-El and Lara send their son away and Jor-El fights Zod to a virtual standstill. We begin to see the cruel, win at all costs nature of General Zod when he takes the cowards way out and stabs Jor-El through when the fight had stopped. Zod and his soldiers are banished and frozen in time for “300 cycles” but when Krypton collapses the explosion sets them free and we later find out they spend the next 30 years or so trying to find Kal-El and the Codex.

On earth the character development and dialogue are firing away as we see a young Clark being perceived to be the class basket case as he tries to adapt to all the things he can see, hear and do. We also get to see him bullied and see how saving the life of a bus full of kids puts him at further risk but also makes him a lifelong friend in one of the bullies he saved. Clark goes on as a young man to travel the world working and trying to decide what he is going to do with his powers. He helps others but whenever the display of power gets too great he moves on and starts over.

The story of Lois and Clark can’t start because Lois is only seeing and dealing with Superman in this movie (well until the end) and yet the dialogue and interactions are appropriate. The thing that is key about Lois is that she finds out who and what Clark is and decides not to share the information after Clark explains that he watched his father die to protect his secret from a world his father was sure wasn’t ready for him.

This all becomes a moot point when Zod arrives and tells the WORLD who he is looking for and “outs” him as different and super powered. The world is given an ultimatum to turn him in. One of the best scenes for dialogue to me, though brief, is when Clark walks into a local Church and tells the minister he is the guy the aliens want. The Minister gulps audibly and visibly and yet still tries to give him good advice. Superman ultimately gives himself up to the American authorities so that he can in turn be given over to General Zod.

Superman knew that Zod couldn’t be trusted but the full extent of what he wishes to do is almost unbelievable. He wants to use the codex and a machine called a “world engine” to terraform Earth. Terraforming is engineering the conditions, flora and fauna to better suit the other life forms. This world engine will also wipe out all of mankind if this is allowed to happen.

There is a message delivered by Commander Faora that Superman is weak because of his morality and that the Kryptonian soldiers are evolutionally superior because they are not hampered by it. This was a very interesting premise because I couldn’t stop thinking about the implications…

We see Perry (Editor at the Daily Planet played by Laurence Fishburne) stopping to try to save a young female intern who is pinned in rubble. He orders one of his reporters (who could have left since the world was falling apart around them and their workspace didn’t exist any longer) to help him try to get the young lady out. They struggle but as the destruction is coming towards them they know it is useless and stop. Neither man runs they stay with the girl knowing it will mean their doom. Superman also takes on a mission that just may kill him as when he gets near the world engine and conditions become more like Krypton he grows ever weaker. Soldiers are shown REPEATEDLY sacrificing and dying against an enemy they can’t HOPE to defeat…. One Air Force Colonel who had already shown himself willing to die against Commander Faora in a hand to hand knife battle but was saved by Superman, later sacrifices himself to deliver a nuke of sorts that destroys the world engine and creates a singularity or black hole that manages to suck in all the Kryptonians except Kal and Zod.

From an evolutionary standpoint, where there IS no objective external right and wrong, YOU are all that matter and you are supposed to protect yourself and stay alive. Sacrificing yourself for others makes NO sense from an evolutionary standpoint. This movie speaks of sacrifice, duty, honor and helping others even at the risk of oneself. It mentions God in a positive manner and not just as a curse word and ultimately, it shows that sometimes ALL we can do is stand against wrong. The final message to me in this movie comes from the final battle on Earth between the last two Kryptonians..

This sequence ALMOST became too much as we see an evenly matched Zod and Superman fighting. There is an unbelievable amount of collateral damage with buses, trains and entire buildings being laid waste. Finally, in a scene that looks like it was done in the Metropolis version of the Grand Central Station, we see Superman holding Zod in a chokehold while Zod starts trying to fry humans with his laser vision.. Zod had, earlier, told Superman that this could only end one way, with one of them dead, and I think that Superman had to be racking his brains as the big battle was raging, desperately trying to think of some other way to stop him. He tries reasoning with him and finally as Zod is just about to kill a cowering family Superman snaps his neck with a two handed twist. I burst out into applause. NOT because I enjoy seeing violence but because as an Army war veteran I understand (perhaps better than most) that some people are like rabid dogs and like rabid dogs they should be put down to protect the world from their infections and their destructive actions. Kal-El, realizing he has just had to kill the only other Kryptonian on Earth screams and starts to cry.

The last few minutes of the movie I don’t want to give away at all so I won’t.

This just may be the movie of the summer. I loved Iron Man 3 but this was even bigger and better to me. I’m still waiting for the New Captain America, Thor and Wolverine Movies but I can’t see right now how any of these can top Superman Man of Steel.

Posted in Intelligent Design/Creationism, News, Politics, Product Or Business Review, Religion/Spirituality | 2 Comments