A Discussion Between two “Christians” On Abortion

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Below you will see a facebook discussion between myself and L.D. the first part is her position and the second part that will be clearly marked is my rebuttal.  Italics and emphasis in L.D.’s narrative were added by me… Placing “Christians” in the tile is NOT an insult or attack on any persons Christianity it is a question…… IF we are “Christians” shouldn’t we settle our disagreements with his word?

“First, there is man’s law and God’s law. Only believers are held to God’s law. Man’s law is for all people and must allow for their beliefs as well. It is not proper to hold non-believers or different believers to God’s law. God’s law is not codified. It is for each individual to interpret the meaning of God’s law for him or herself. Man’s law is codified and we have a system of interpreting and changing the meaning of that law.

A natural person is under current law defined as an individual that exists separate from it’s maternal host. That means outside the womb and still alive. That’s the definition. It’s the specific factor on which everyone agrees life begins. Nobody, actually very few, say that a baby alive and outside the womb is not a person.The question then becomes at what point is it illegal to perform an abortion. We know a single cell is not a person. I had a skin tag removed from my leg. It was living human tissue, but no one was going to claim it was a person.

As I’m Christian and am informed by those beliefs, I believe a person becomes a person when it acquires a soul. I believe that comes with the first breath. The youngest babies that have lived are 20 weeks gestation or above. That means that the only reason they have not acquired a breath is because they are not outside the womb. Were they outside the womb, they would have taken a breath and received a soul. That’s the best information we have about where to draw the line. I believe that is the reason Texas has chosen that limitation in it’s law. Babies younger and younger are saved. I think we’re pretty close to the line where younger babies simply cannot live if delivered earlier.

This is the point where I my personal beliefs and my beliefs about law and government diverge slightly. Legally, I believe that abortions before 20 weeks should be legal. These fetuses cannot survive outside the womb and therefore are considered part of a woman’s body and not a separate being. That is because I believe in individual rights and a person making medical decisions for herself. Morally, I would not have an abortion. I would try to discourage a friend from having an abortion. I believe in supporting groups like CareNet that provide women more options. I don’t believe the government (actually taxpayers) should be funding either Planned Parenthood or groups like CareNet.

My beliefs about government are not the same as how I conduct my personal life. I further believe that God instructed us to love one another and preventing them from making their own choices is not acting in love.

There can be no civil debate between those who believe as you believe and those who believe as I believe.

We have a different set of assumptions.

If you don’t believe abortion is allowed under God’s law, don’t have one, but don’t take that right from someone else without compelling reason.”

Preacher Cruz’ rebuttal follows this break ********************************************************

Lisaresponse

Okay, I disagree that Gods law is not codified. Certainly SOME things are left open to debate but that debate, for believers, should occur in context and with an understanding of what the bible DOES say about the issue or related issues. What about the Ten Commandments seems open to debate or interpretation to you? I would also point out that the bible teaches us that we are NOT supposed to “interpret” the Bible we are to read it and align our will with it as the revealed will of God.

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

IF, PROPHECY, the most cryptic and hard to understand parts of Scripture aren’t supposed to be interpreted why would the rest of scripture?

I would also point out that your position on Western Jurisprudence is inconsistent. ALL of Western Jurisprudence is actually predicated and informed by Judeo-Christian values including the 10 commandments. WHY is it acceptable to expect NON believers to be held to OUR standards when it comes to theft, rape, murder of a human outside the womb, lying, cheating, fraud etc etc? WHY is it only, on the issue of termination of a human life in the womb that you say we can’t expect non theists to be held to our beliefs?

It’s circumspect to say the least and at worst a form of intellectual dishonesty. IF the non theists believe they’re simply evolved animals then theft, rape, lying, cheating and yes even MURDER can be termed “good” in that they may help the criminal to better succeed as an animal. Moral absolutes and even right and wrong cease to exist under THOSE guidelines yet we aren’t arguing to abolish all law, even though it IS based on Judeo Christian values that most do not share.

I would further warn any person against thinking they can “interpret” Gods’ word any way they see fit. This is where cults spring from, the desire to recast God and his word in a form that pleases US.

Ordinarily I wouldn’t use a quote by a progressive activist but hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day… Anne Lamott once said, “You can safely assume you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” I like that but would take it a step further… You can safely assume you’re not practicing true Christianity when the Bible says whatever YOU want it to. There are DEFINITELY places in the Bible that I think, “why does it have to be that way”? things I don’t necessarily like or “agree” with. Ultimately, I submit MY will and understanding to he who made me. I am the flawed and fallible creation and Jesus is the INFALLIBLE creator. He is the word and the word is him (John 1). Who am I, or ANY human being to argue with or against the living WORD of God the Logos?

Yes there is a mechanism by which laws are amended or changed but often this mechanism is hijacked by judges and even the Supreme Court legislating from their respective benches. Taking decisions out of the hands of the states, voters AND their elected legislators isn’t Constitutional and yet we have it happening repeatedly on certain issues.

I’m not sure WHERE you get your chosen “definition” of a natural person but here are some I can find…

: a real human being, as distinguished from a corporation which is often treated at law as a fictitious person.

: A human being, naturally born, versus a legally generated juridical person.

: a human being as distinguished from a person (as a corporation) created by operation of law

: In jurisprudence, a natural person is a real human being, as opposed to a legal person, which may be a private (i.e., business entity) or public (i.e., government) organization.

: Natural personhood” refers to persons as the term is understood in common parlance. Sir William Blackstone characterized “natural persons” as those “[s]uch as the God of nature formed us.”

I quite literally can’t lay my finger upon a SINGLE definition that says a natural person “exists separate from its maternal host” So; it is simply NOT true to state that this “IS” the definition. At least unless you can produce some definitions to show this.

MANY states before and after Roe V Wade have considered and are considering personhood amendments. MANY States consider causing fetal death via any means SAVE abortion as either manslaughter or murder. If these are NOT natural persons how can the law act on their behalf or punish someone for causing their termination? Especially while some people make a good living doing this as an occupation? The Bible also makes clear there is a price due for causing the death of the unborn in the womb…

Exodus 21:22-23

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life

So just causing the baby to be born early was a crime and the husband would determine the punishment but if the baby OR the mother dies life for life.

The skin tag argument is sad and dishonest. I even heard someone talking about their fingers the same way. BIG DIFFERENCE….

I’m not sure if you’re aware of this but your fingers and skin tags will NEVER become anything other than a fleshy piece of skin or finger.

ALSO….

WAIT…FOR…IT…..

They do NOT possess their own separate code of DNA…. Non analogous points of comparison for $200 ALEX!

I’m beginning to think that for those who wish to justify the killing of the unborn the question has NOTHING to do with when the fetus becomes a living human being and EVERYTHING to do with just how “flexible” they can get in their exegetically gymnastic headlong rush to eisegesis!

Truth doesn’t matter here; it is what you can SAY you believe, especially if you can get others to believe it.

IF you’re a Christian and you’re informed by those beliefs then PLEASE explain HOW you can sit here and say a person doesn’t get a soul until they breathe?

The Bible doesn’t say anything remotely like that. Here are some scriptures about life in the womb though…

Psalm 139:13-16

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

GOD spoke to the Prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1:4-5

Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

IF a baby isn’t a “natural person” and/or doesn’t receive a soul until birth what are we to make of the account in Luke 1 when the “fetus” that would be John the Baptist reacted to Jesus just by hearing Mary’s voice?

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy

The Bible ALWAYS considered the “fetus” a child or babe or baby in the womb. There is NO way…..AT ALL to justify saying a fetus is not a human being from a scriptural standpoint.

IF as you say your views are informed by your Christian beliefs then you MUST acknowledge this.

This isn’t about which of us is right, this is about what IS right. I don’t care about being right, I just care about being right with God and preventing the loss of more innocent children to abortion.

To dwell a bit on the idea of breathing though; a fetus may not “breathe” in utero, though the same process is completed for them in a sense by the mother. IF a baby is born prematurely they often DO breathe on their own or can be stimulated to breathe for themselves. What IF a woman believing as YOU do, that a baby is soulless until it’s first breath, decides to give Birth in a swimming pool and then kill her child before it TAKES that first breath?  OBVIOUSLY, this shows a major flaw in your thinking….THAT would be premeditated infanticide… Though you say this child has no soul and so is therefore NOT a person.

Botched abortions DO sometimes breathe. SO by your COMPLETELY made up, unsupported by scripture, views as a Christian, this unwanted and botched abortion NOW has a soul! President Obama supported letting living breathing human beings by your OWN admission and words since they were now “breathing and had a soul” sit on a shelf in a closet until they died.

Viability doesn’t nullify the FACT that this is a preborn human, the FACT that GOD says it is a human being OR the FACT that this precious life already has its own DNA and likely heart beat and brain activity! By your reasoning if a person is no longer able to survive on their own without assistance and can’t reason or speak for its own rights then they lose their personhood? I mean after all they aren’t able to survive on their own and don’t have the means to request or defend their “natural rights”…. So, is it ok to kill them for the convenience of family or taxpayers? The Devaluing of life is rapidly taking us to these types of decisions.

IF NOTHING IS WRONG WITH ABORTION then why would you not have one? Why would you try to encourage someone not to etc? You have absorbed an UN Christian Liberal worldview and are now trying to make it fit with your Christianity. You’re not even able to be coherent now because of this, doctrinally speaking. You’ve allowed the discussion to be co-opted by Orwellian double speak. Medical decisions, reproductive health choices, fetus & termination….. Let’s call things what they really are for the most part, sinful, selfish baby killings.

You just can’t have it both ways. I understand you’re saying, you don’t feel ALL people should be held to the same standards as believers, even IF, as I’ve already demonstrated that thinking is flawed, inconsistent and not entirely honest…..

HOWEVER, ultimately, as a Christian you KNOW that some things are morally right and some wrong. Right and wrong are not subjective they are OBJECTIVE referents to he who has given us the law. Right and wrong don’t depend on US they depend on GOD and I think you know this… Gods’ law IS applicable to all in an overarching, spiritual, very real and final way. Those who deny Jesus and his law will all be judged….

OH boy, preventing people from making their own choices? MURDER should never BE a choice. ALL women have LOTS of choices. Whether to have sex or not, what contraception if any to use, where they will do it, with whom, how they wish to do it etc. THESE are legitimate choices.

I just don’t see how allowing people who have thus far not shown the best ability to MAKE healthy decisions; to NOW have power over whether another human being lives or dies (or if you prefer has the CHANCE or CHOICE to live or die) is supposed to be an example of showing Christian love to them…

Does Jesus hate us because he opposes US lying, cheating, stealing, killing etc etc? Of course not? Is he blocking our free will choices? No, he is simply showing us that some things SHOULDN’T BE choices and asking that we accept the CONSEQUENCES of our choices.

I suppose allowing women to be objectified and used by men, in some cases forced to have abortions, not have their rapists reported (statutory and otherwise), herded like cattle through sometimes filthy, uncaring, abattoir like environments, ran by merciless, heartless, profiteering quacks, potentially ending up psychologically and physically scarred, sterilized and even killed is somehow loving? I oppose abortion because it is WRONG. Whether or not you consider it murder, I just don’t see how anyone can make an argument that an abortion is EVER morally right or good.

Certain things are not supposed to be choices. We don’t allow people to shoot up in public nor are you likely to try to defend this, we don’t allow people to sell body parts or their whole body to people etc etc. THIS all removes their rights to make choices about their own bodies!

I am saddened to say that I agree with you on one point. There CAN be no civil debate with someone who twists the Bible to try to make it say what they wish and those of us who follow Christ in truth and in deed. HIS will not ours should be the goal of all “Christians”.

How can two “Christians” who claim to believe in and serve the same God and use the same Bible view this, BASIC issue so differently?

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

WE are called to be different from this world if we truly believe in, love and follow Christ.

This has NOTHING to do with what I believe or what you believe it is about what GOD says. Abortion IS the unlawful and unconstitutional taking of a preborn human life. THAT alone is to ME, as a servant of the most high God, a more than compelling reason to prevent some poor woman from killing her unborn child.

Ultimately, I can NOT do this but NO “Christian” should wish to enable it or pretend it is OK either.

  • GrandmaDebbie

    Thank you Lisa. What a great response. The Bible verse that always goes thru my head when reading things like this discussion is Deuteronomy 30:19: …I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. Some Bibles say descendants or children, but I like the KJV’s use of seed because it tells me that God cares about us even before we are conceived, like the many verses you quoted.
    Before I had read your response I had been reading about how a fetus requires oxygen or it will die or if it doesn’t get enough oxygen it will have a possibility of many serious disabilities. So shouldn’t that mean that they have already received “the breath of life” and are already a person? It is really hard to comprehend where people get this idea that God has to breathe life into them as they come out of the womb, just because that is what he did with Adam…a totally different situation, obviously! I read a quote from C.S. Lewis: We don’t have a soul, we are a soul. We have a body.” Makes sense to me.

  • GrandmaDebbie… Lisa believes that a fetus is NOT a living, actual or legal being until 20 weeks and that it is ok to terminate them up until then!

    I believe you are liking my response to Lisa.

    • GrandmaDebbie

      Yes, you are right. I got it backwards. Sorry. I was worried about you there for a while! I guess I will now be praying that God change Lisa’s heart and not yours 🙂 God bless you.